Why Outcome Independence Is Crucial

By Kryptokate

Kryptokate

Today I want to talk about the importance of developing outcome independence if you want to be successful with men.

If you do any reading in the “manosphere,” you will read a lot about outcome independence, which basically means not giving a fuck. In the dating context, being outcome independent means that one is not emotionally attached to the outcome of the dating. Instead, one simply enjoys the date in the moment, and doesn’t worry about whether or not it turns into something more, what the date thinks of you, whether or not sex or a relationship results, or anything else.

According to the experts in the manosphere, outcome independence is extremely important for being successful with women. They’re right about that, though not exactly for the right reason. According to these guys, being outcome independent shows that a man has an outlook of abundance and lots of options, which are cues for a man being a desirable alpha male, and that’s what women want. In other words, a guy who doesn’t care whether or not he gets a second date with you is a guy who’s got so many options that you didn’t even warrant his notice, a top alpha male, and women swoon over that. In contrast, a guy who gets butthurt that you didn’t text him back is showing that he must be a loser because he cares too much.

That explanation is part of the story, but only a minor part. Being outcome independent is in fact an indirect cue of power and options, since someone with an abundance of good options is less likely to be too emotionally tied to any given outcome with a particular date. But it’s still an indirect cue and a proxy for high SMV, which isn’t nearly as powerful as the many direct cues a woman will pick up on. Most women will immediately see through a low SMV guy who is just pretending to be outcome independent in order to ape being an alpha, and most women can rather easily peg how desirable a guy is without this kind of display.

The bigger proof that the theory behind this phenomenon is wrong is because outcome independence not only works for women, but it works EVEN MORE than it does when a man is outcome independent. So here the theory breaks down because guys aren’t supposed to care about how powerful or “alpha” a woman is. Yet there is no single factor that will motivate a man to fall in love or pursue you more, after looking sexy, than being outcome independent.

So why is it so important? Being perceived as being in demand and having lots of options, as described above, is part of it. But the bigger reason is that if you are outcome independent, you drastically change the balance of potential rewards and risks that a man perceives in getting involved in you. It will strongly tilt the balance in the favor or reward rather than detriment, he will feel much safer and more comfortable getting to know you, and he will be much more prone to falling in love.

This is something I stumbled into unintentionally. It wasn’t a put-on or a ploy. I just happen to have a rather detached, avoidant personality for a woman. I don’t get emotionally attached to a guy just because I have sex with him, I don’t long for a relationship, and I virtually always desire less time together and commitment than the guy does. Why I am like this doesn’t really matter…chalk it up to the ego-busting effects of taking psychedelics in high school or simply being an inborne temperament. The point is, I know for a fact that NOT caring about whether or not a serious relationship results is one of the most effective ways for a guy to fall for you (again, after looks, which always reign supreme).

Here’s why: because getting sexually involved with a woman is a huge risk for a man. If a man puts his penis in a woman without immediately wanting a relationship with her, he is actually risking ALLLLL kinds of trouble…rape accusations, tears, guilt, social pressure, angry phone calls and texts, crazy behavior and emotional manipulation, accidentally-on-purpose pregnancies, being socially ostracized for being a jerk or a player, even physical threats from the girl’s male friends and family. I mean seriously, think about it as a woman…would you ever want to deal with that shit? I wouldn’t. The fact that men continue to put their penis into women at all is a testament to just how strong their sex drive is, that they risk all that. Men regularly sacrifice their long-term peace and happiness for the sake of sex (which women of course know and exploit).

The point is, your average woman presents a man with both rewards (fun, sex, good times) and risk (guilt, shame, emotional drama, arguing). He weighs these in deciding to get involved. And since he wants to avoid the latter, he usually limits the time he spends and how involved he’ll get, because he wants to maximize the rewards and limit the risks. He can’t do anything that might let her think he’s her boyfriend because then he’ll have to deal with her tears and drama when he doesn’t act like a boyfriend. He can’t be too nice or cuddly or she’ll start expecting commitment. Etc.

And this is where outcome independence changes the equation fundamentally. Because a women who is truly outcome independent and does not care if a relationship results or whether they continue to have sex is offering a man reward with no risk. He doesn’t need to worry about getting drama or tears because he isn’t going to get it – she doesn’t give a fuck. He can relax. He can spend time with her, get to know her, cuddle with her, sleep over, and do all those things (which men like too!) without worrying she’s going to start demanding he put a ring on it. It totally relieves the pressure. And because there’s no pressure, he’s free to fall in love.

In fact, he will soon start wondering WHY she doesn’t give a fuck. How come she still doesn’t care, even though he’s been fucking her for six months? Does she ever even think about him when he isn’t there? Would she even care if they broke up? Doesn’t she ever cry? He will become obsessed with getting her to be emotionally attached to him and getting her to care more than he does. Getting her to want a relationship with him will become his goal and focus. He’ll feel like if he could just get her to care and commit to him, he will have won a super rare and super valuable prize.

I’m telling you ladies, it works like a charm every goddamn time. Even though I truly don’t do it on purpose. But if you can pull it off, you will have men trying to lock you down and proposing to you and pushing for commitment left and right.

So that’s the big picture: by laying off the pressure, you present yourself as all pleasure and no pain, and it lets a man relax, enjoy you, get to know you, and grow increasingly attached to you. It takes away all the things he’s trying to avoid and lets him focus on all the positive things about you. And that’s what allows love to flourish. He will see you beneficial to his life, not a potential liability.

The harder problem is HOW to genuinely achieve outcome independence rather than just faking it. Because while most girls will play it cool for a few weeks, it’s ultimately an act that guys will easily see through, and he’ll be scared away once she subtly (or overtly) starts pushing for a relationship as time goes on. How to achieve true I-don’t-give-a-fuck outcome independence deserves its own article and may require rather extreme tactics that many of you may not be willing to engage in, like hallucinogenic drugs :). But until then, you can at least fake it till you make it.

There’s a paradox here because one might want to be outcome independent in order to successfully secure a relationship with the guy they want, because one wants that so badly. But in becoming truly outcome independent, one will acquire the opportunity for that relationship but will no longer truly want (or at least care) about it. It’s just one of life’s many cosmic jokes.

~Kryptokate

Kryptokate

10 comments

  1. Very true Kate on both sides. The less I care about the girl I’m seeing, the more into me she becomes. It’s pretty incredible to watch it unfold. On the female side, I can see where that same attitiude may get the same results. Any time a girl applies pressure to a guy to commit, she’ll often get dumped. Guys do want to just relax and not worry about “where this is going”. The more relaxed we feel, the more we’ll open up.
    I will say though that a woman still needs to show a man some level of care and not be totally aloof. I quickly give up on those types.

    Per usual, I enjoy your candor and honesty from the female side! Keep it up

  2. Longtime lurker, 1st time poster. Very eloquent and well thought out. I agree with all of this., as a strategy for business and for women who are in it for the short term and view men as disposable. Let’s say you are here because you are awkward with men AND you don’t want anyone to tell you what to do. Doesn’t this strategy base the relationship on manipulation, rather than true connection? And isn’t it something that needs to be adjusted as a relationship evolves? I’m curious what your response is. Please also assume, I’ve never been dependent on anyone, all my bills have been paid perfectly and while I have had many, many ups and downs, I’ve always come back from them.. Thank you for your thoughts.

  3. I don’t think I’m very outcome independent at all. The only thing I can say is that I’m not clingy; I won’t ask a guy to see his phone or try to take a peek at who he’s texting with or ask who were you just talking to? I keep things to myself as long as a can, but then there’s a point where I ask, where is this going? There was a brief moment where I was finally starting to think that maybe this whole not caring if a guy is seeing other girls beside me isn’t so bad after all…..until I got an std after a year into the relationship. So I certainly think that being with one person at a time is important and that us caring is a way to protect ourselves and a way to look out for our own health.

  4. @ CrabRangoon Yeah I agree one can’t be totally aloof and cold, but I think you can show passion and still be outcome independent. In fact I would say it’s *necessary* to show occassional glimmers of passion and excitment (though they should not be all the time).

    I can be very, very enthusiastic, caring, happy, and excited in the moment or about something occurring in the near future, while also remaining outcome independent about the long-term. For example, if I had plans for a weekend trip with a guy next weekend that I expected to be full of fun, adventure, and hot sex, you can bet I would be super excited about that and the guy would definitely experience my enthusiasm and happiness in anticipation the weekend, during it, and relishing it after the fact. But that still doesn’t mean that I would have some desire to lock that guy down for that kind of weekend a year from now, or forever. My enthusiasm would all be centered on the now or very near future. I really don’t focus on or bother thinking about the long-term future, because I think it’s pointless since things change so much and you have no idea what you’ll want in the future or what the circumstances will be. The desire to try to force one’s future self into commitments one’s current self desires, and to force how things are today to stay the same and be that way forever, is a futile endeavor that prevents people from enjoying themselves more.

    Also, as far as deliberate strategy goes, if you want to motivate someone, intermittent reinforcement is best. So to game a guy, that would mean giving him little glimpses of intense pleasure and enthusiasm, but they shouldn’t be reliable or consistent or something he thinks he can rely on. Motivation depends on knowing that a good outcome is possible but not guaranteed. So if he takes a woman’s desire for him for granted as something he can depend on, he will lose motivation to stay interested. Same works in reverse. Vegas casinos and other businesses that depend on keeping customers motivated to spend money have this down to a science, and keeping someone motivated and interested requires that they’re only sometimes but not always rewarded. Uncertainty is the biggest motivator, and people don’t keep paying attention to stories when they know what’s going to happen. They want to stay involved in the story when they’re not sure how it ends and they want to see what happens next.

  5. @ Amber We’re going to have to pull apart the threads of what you’re asking, because I’m not sure exactly what you mean when you use certain words.

    First, you say that what I’m writing only works for someone who thinks of men in the short-term and as disposable. As far as short-term goes, you’re right, I don’t tend to think or try to plan to far into the future — certainly not more than a year. Life changes so quickly nowadays that it seems like a waste to worry too much about a future where you have no idea what the circumstances will be. In a fast-changing environment I think it’s better to be flexible and adaptable than to be too future-oriented.

    However, I have to object to the term “disposable” as that has a very negative connotation and implies disposing of someone like trash. People are not objects and I don’t dispose of them or think of them that way. Everyone is unique, and we all want to be thought of as irreplaceable. However, many, many people can make you happy and bring delight and magic into your life. This is true just as much as it is true that no one is entirely fungible or replaceable because everyone is unique. I’m not being critical here I just want to point out the use of language because I think it’s important. I can truly love, admire, value, and delight in a person for their special qualities while also not feeling a need to be in a long term monogamous relationship with them, and it’s not because I consider them “disposable.”

    So, now, onto your question. Can you clarify what you mean exactly by a “true connection”? I’m not sure what qualifies as that versus not. It seems to me that there are four situations one can be in with another person:

    1. Your desires and interests are the same or aligned, so there’s no problem.
    2. Your interests conflict, and one of you forces or directly coerces the other to serve their interests.
    3. Your interests conflict and one of you motivates the other to voluntarily change or compromise so your interests are aligned (by persuasion, changing the incentives, etc).
    4. Your interests conflict and one of you covertly, through misrepresentation and ommission and indirect means, gets the other person to abandon their interests and serve your own (this is what I would call manipulation).
    4. Your interests conflict, and you stay in conflict.

    I don’t think what I’m advising is manipulation because I’m actually talking about aligning your interests so that they’re the same. If you’re outcome independent, then you don’t have conflicting interests, you both have the interest of enjoying yourselves. I’m not manipulating anyone because I’m genuinely outcome independent, I’m not just pretending to be. I’m not sure what you mean by connection though, perhaps you can explain further.

    If your question is how to be outcome independent by getting rid of your long-term romantic desires, then that requires becoming truly convinced that there is no benefit to to you to doing so. And in your case, if you have not ever depended financially on a man, then what is the reason that you would want to keep the same man you like today 5 years in the future? You might like him in 5 years but you might not, so what is the reason you would want to force a decision today? I am not asking this rhetorically but I am honestly wondering what the reason would be. If there is a good reason, then maybe you can’t be outcome independent. But I think you might find that there is not actually a good reason and that this is something you could let go of without fear that something bad will happen.

  6. @ Bulma The thing is, if the guy wants what you want, which is a committed, monogamous relationship, then there’s no problem. There’s only a problem when he doesn’t. And if he doesn’t, being clingy or needy or jealous is NOT going to change his mind. So there’s really no reason to engage in those behaviors for the simple reason that they don’t work. They might get him to temporarily comply with what you want in order to stop the clingy behavior, but they won’t change his fundamental desires. He’s only going to change those if he perceives that the rewards of being in a relationship with you outweigh the detriments. And one of those detriments is not being able to have sex with other women, which is a huge detriment for men that we need to recognize.

    As far as wondering “where is this going?” if it is non-negotiably important to you that a long-term relationship occur, then you are very rational to think that way, and to move on if it doesn’t look like it will occur. Because in that case you ARE tied to the outcome, so you can’t really be outcome independent, you can only pretend to be temporarily. My question to you is, why is that important to you? It’s worthwhile examining why you want that, and whether it’s something that would actually make you happy. It is my genuine, deep belief, that most women are LESS happy in long-term monogamous relationships, after the first year. They will smile less, laugh less, and experience more stress in a committed relationship than without. The fun and enjoyable part is almost all at the beginning. I truly believe that, based on my observations, which is why I’m outcome independent — because it’s based on my true beliefs and I am avoiding what I consider a less-happy future.

    Now I might not be able to convince you of that, but I do think it’s worth examining why you want the long-term relationship to make sure those desires are valid. I think you might find that many of them are based on media illusions and myths. So, what are your reasons? Do you perceive that the women you know who are in long-term relationships seem happier and to enjoy life more than those who are not?

    So I think the only things you can do is to either change the ratio of rewards to detriments, or just cut bait entirely because his interests aren’t aligned with yours. But clinging won’t help.

  7. I think being outcome independent is good. However, there is probably such a thing as being TOO far over on that spectrum. You have to give somewhat of a fuck to have any kind of real relationship with someone. If both of you are completely outcome independent and don’t care, then it turns into a fuck buddy relationship and oftentimes, we want more than that.
    Many men, when you appear like you don’t care, will keep you at a distance. They are protecting themselves, just like we are and if no one is willing to be vulnerable then you can’t get close. Sometimes, seeing a woman get upset and dramatic, is just what a guy needs to realize he DOES actually care…
    Case in point-
    There is this guy I have been sleeping with for the past 8 months. It’s mostly sex but has some friendship element so maybe more of a fwb, or becoming that way. Anyway, we have a temporary partnership going on between the companies that we both work for and have occasionally seen each other working lately.
    Recently, he was asking me questions about one of my female co-workers. They were sexual questions, like was she bi and did she want to have a threesome. I made it flat out clear that I don’t sleep with my co-workers even if she was. He left it alone.
    Until, one day, I had to leave early and he was there with her and he gave some excuse for getting her Facebook. I saw it because I am friends with both of them and it upset me quite a bit. I was feeling threatened. I mean, I need to have a good working relationship with my co-worker to be able to function at my job. I cannot be competing over men and it really pissed me off that he went behind my back and did that. She had no idea I was fucking him, so was completely innocent.
    Anyway, I was so furious that I was just ready to be done with him for good. I said as long as you are pursuing my co-worker, I want NOTHING to do with you. Of course he jumped in and denied it and made a zillion excuses and claimed that he did it for work purposes, etc. I didn’t care- I was ready to completely cut him off (and maybe that is extreme outcome independence, idk but there was still drama). I also explained the situation to HER, nicely, so she would know what was going on and not risk our working relationship either. Maybe I was marking my territory there too, but needed to make it clear.
    When he realized just how serious I was about it, he deleted her off Facebook, called me on the phone and spent and hour yelling about his innocence and integrity. I wasn’t buying it. He was like “can’t you see I care about you!! Don’t you see how upset I’m getting over this? I’m acting like we are married and we aren’t even in a relationship! I want YOU, I don’t want her! I would never have done it if I realized it would make you this upset with me!! Every time I come over there, it’s to see YOU and make sure YOU are happy (with the partnership thing we have going on)!! He was saying how he sees me as much more than just sex, how he wouldn’t want to risk our friendship, how he always wishes I would stay the night and I don’t (usually need to get back to my kids).
    He said I felt threatened by this girl and he didn’t know why, and I admitted that I do. I do feel threatened, I feel like my job is at risk, I don’t want to have to worry that every time I turn my back you are moving in on my friends or co-workers. I was scared that you would do that after you started asking questions about her and you did and I don’t feel safe or like I can trust you.
    My reserve was finally melted and I forgave him, but he is being extra careful now to avoid any appearances of talking to this woman. In my opinion, that’s a good thing. He is also going over and above to make sure I know he is thinking of me and trying to spend more time with me. I’m not sure that would have been brought around without all the drama, I’m really not.

  8. I agree that it might be best to have a blend of the two, outcome independence and non-outcome independence. I think naturally we’re going to have random outbursts here and there; meaning sometimes we have to lose our cool and give a guy grief. We can hold back but it’s not always easy.

    Lovergirl, I would feel so threatened/jealous/angry/upset too. I just put myself and the guy I’m seeing into that same scenario and it made me really upset just thinking about it! To be honest, I’d be jealous/hurt/upset too even if it wasn’t a co-worker; it wouldn’t matter who it was. At least you were aware because he asked you first and you witnessed them talking or whatever. I don’t like thinking about a guy I’m seeing trying to get with anyone else. I just don’t really think it’s a good idea for people to be sleeping with multiple people at once. I don’t say this because I think it’s slutty, but that’s how std’s start getting passed around. I think short-term commitment is the best; one person at a time. I’m just getting really fired up lately about this because that’s what happened to me and I’m really f-ing bitter about it. Like you said, we need to feel safe and like we can trust someone we are sleeping with!

  9. “However, I have to object to the term “disposable” as that has a very negative connotation and implies disposing of someone like trash. People are not objects and I don’t dispose of them or think of them that way”
    YES, that’s my issue with some of the tactics employed during “The Rules” vs PUA plus online connectivity. I’ve been in sales for years and while you “can fake it til you make it for a certain amount of time”, at some point you need to develop genuine bonds with people to have a long term relationship, even business.
    ” I’m not sure what you mean by connection though, perhaps you can explain further.”
    I mean a long term social or sexual bond. I look at it like this and while I’ll probably evolve, this is my thinking now. Why choose? Why not have social pair bonds with men and women and a rotation of sexual pair bonds. I’d really like to live next door to a man who has aligned interests. I have lots of reasons for this but I really like and enjoy all types of men so being tied down to one, no. But by the age of 50 or 60, might I like long term MLTRs with men who have woven in and out of my life from stops and starts.
    Does that all make sense?
    btw, and I’m sorry if this is rude, I find it much harder to comment on this site than BDs

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